A Siege is a WMD

@clousems I am not going to talk historically but I going to talk from a religious perspective from both Islam and Judaism
Jews say that the land was Jewish
In there book it states that the land was giving to Abraham and his decents
I will let you complete the rest

@Raspberry_yoghurt said in #57:
> So this is the problem with the lame claim that Gaza is being carpet bombing.
>
> In claiming this, you now make all the READ carpet bombings relevant.
>
> The easy thing to avoid this would be TO NOT JUST CLAIM IT IS CARPET BOMBING WHEN IT IS NOT.
>
> It's not very hard.
>
> Like if you claim thai Israel is nuking Gaza like Hiroshima every day, people would also complain about that. So you just don't claim that.
I'm not interested in lying that Zionists bombs Gaza like Hiroshima. The current harsh reality in Gaza is sufficent for me to prove my point: Thousands of people died and you argue about whether it's carpet bombing or not.

@clousems said in #59:
> Well, I don't acknowledge twitter and youtube as evidence without fact-checking. I especially don't tend to regard them as evidence when they are propaganda designed to accuse a state of planning every bad thing that happened in war. I had an argument about this with the Russia stuff, when I said that I did not believe that Russia was ordering their troops to rape Ukrainians. War is hell, as William Sherman once said, but that doesn't make Putin or Netanyahu Satan.
Then why are there Youtube comments and Twitter readers' added context?! Tell me with honesty you ignore my evidence because you judge those websites based on fact-checking or because they're "propaganda designed to accuse a state of planning very bad thing that happened in war". You can do fact-checking on behalf of those posts I posted, and you will have confirmation for their authenticity.

When it's about Zionists, it's "bad thing that happens in war", but when it's about Hamas and Palestinians, it's "terrorism and extremism". Double standard at its peak.

> I would explain Israel's anti-Palestine sentiment of late as pretty rational considering the Hamas attack. I acknowledge that the two parties have been feuding for a long time, but I only consider irrational characterizations of others to be racist. Israel has reason to distrust Palestine.
You overlook the killing of innocents by thousands through 75 years of torture (even Zionists call it the "Nakba") by Zionists towards Palestinians, and you still have the audacity to accuse Hamas when Hamas didn't even exist in 1948. History didn't start on Oct. 7th, do I have to repeat this all the time?

> Dangerous game you're playing with the "historical precedent" angle. The land actually belonged to the Jews long before Mohammed was born. Then the Romans took it over. Then the Christians took it over. Technically, I think it was the Byzantines who expelled the Jews. Then the Muslims took it from the Byzantines. Then the Christians took it from the Muslims. Then the Muslims (Mamluks?) and the Jews teamed up to take it from the Christians. Then the Ottomans took it from the Mamluks. Then the British took it from the Ottomans. Then the British gave it to the Jews.
Then who did it belong to before Mohammed and before the Jews? Abraham عليه السلام and his people (according to the Qur'an, Abraham was muslim: quran.com/3?startingVerse=67) and then Loth عليه السلام. And we're speaking about when the British took it from the Ottomans and gave it to the Jews. The Jews at that time started to expell the local Arabs, and massacre them during 75 years, and in half of that time, Hamas didn't exist. How do you explain that?

> In summary, there really isn't a group that can claim "they had it first" (unless you count the Sumerians, who are all dead).
The fact that all Sumerians are dead refute your claim "there really isn't a group that can claim "they had it first". To be honest, I think you're doing these posts on purpose to stop me from saying "Zionists are killing Palestinians" despite obvious flaws on your part. Saying "there really isn't a group that can claim "they had it first"" then saying "unless you count the Sumerians, who are all dead" is just mocking the entire world. I'm using your own words against you, be careful when you make blatant mistakes like that.

> See above
I saw above. See its answer.

> Actually, expressing that a country does not have the right to exist,
Remind me how they took the country before saying it's extremism. It's racism from the people who massacred the locals in that original country.

> and that any action against them is justified is pretty much textbook extremism.
I never said "You can do whatever action against Zionist enemy". I said "Yes I accuse Zionists of genocide, and the Zionists can't defend themselves from the truth".

@clousems said in #60:
> I don't know why you are married to this. It is a stupid thing to keep bringing up.
>
> The legal definition of genocide is: "a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part."
Tell me if this definition lines up with what's happening in Gaza.

> Bombing Hamburg was clearly an act of war, which was justified because it had strategic significance in the conflict. It wasn't just a bunch of Brits and Americans saying "Hey, why don't we bomb Germany, because Germans suck?"
Did it strike innocent civilians? If it didn't and only soldiers were hit, then it's an act of war. If it did and civilians died in the bombing of Hamburg, it's a war crime. I respect anyone from any origin, and if I say "a people from an origin suck", it would be for a good reason (in this case Zionists suck because they bomb Gaza full of civilians and treat Palestinians as "animals").

> By continually referencing this, you hammer home the point that Gaza is a strategically significant city.
It's not the main reeason. Gaza is a significant city for a dense population of Palestinian civilians.

> If you want to reinforce that genocide is occuring, you would presumably want to reference Auschwitz. Granted, Auschwitz comps would be met with reminders that the Jews didn't launch an earlier terrorist strike, but you would at least get your point across.
I looked up "Auschwitz", "a Nazi concentration camp in WW2, near the town of Oświęcim (Auschwitz) in occupied Poland". I didn't really comment on it because I don't know what happened precisely in Auschwitz in WW2, and I fear I would just give false statement because I didn't know what happened in detail. And even then, comparing WW2 with a straight-up genocide in Gaza in a completely different scenario than WW2 is just unacceptable.

Genuine question, @WassimBerbar, do you believe that what Hamas is doing is justified?

Feel free to add "yes, but" or "no, but" for context into your opinion.

That said, earlier you said that Abraham is a Muslim. But that's according to the Quran, while other religions will also tell you Abraham was their father. Not to mention the official start of Islam is 610, so Abraham technically couldn't have been a Muslim.

Even if he was a Muslim though, how does this prove your point?

Lineage:
Abraham => Issac => Ishmael and Jacob
(Interestingly enough, Jacob is claimed to also have had his name changed to Israel later on.)

You also said that there's a double standard over the Jews and the Palestinians. Source?

You claim that the Jews are trying to wipe out the Palestinians. I see no proof for this. "From the river to the sea", however, is a genocide chant.

From Wikipedia:
"Hamas, as part of its revised 2017 charter, rejected "any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea", referring to all areas of former Mandatory Palestine and by extension, the end of Jewish sovereignty in the region.[3][6][29] Islamic Jihad declared that "from the river to the sea – [Palestine] is an Arab Islamic land that [it] is legally forbidden from abandoning any inch of, and the Israeli presence in Palestine is a null existence, which is forbidden by law to recognize.[30] Islamists have used a version "Palestine is Islamic from the river to the sea"[31]"

So, if Palestine belongs to the Arabs only, then where is Israel supposed to go?

The land now called Israel, Palestine, and the Gaza Strip has been passed from many hands. You cannot really start a "who had it first" argument, but even if you wanted to trace it to Abraham and stop there, Abraham was neither Arab nor Jew. So that doesn't really prove anything.

@WassimBerbar said in #62:
> I'm not interested in lying that Zionists bombs Gaza like Hiroshima. The current harsh reality in Gaza is sufficent for me to prove my point: Thousands of people died and you argue about whether it's carpet bombing or not.

I am only arguing whether it is carpet bombing or not because YOU claim it and YOU refuse to admit you are wrong and YOU refuse o accept the reality of things.

If you'd just listen and be like "oh well, sure man, I never looked up what it is and just sad it like that, but I guess it is not carpet bombing," then there'd be no argument.

We're on the internet anyway, so don't give me this "while thousands die while you argue." We're BOTH sitting on the internet debating this, it's not like you're out there stopping Israeli bullets in the air or whatever while I am arguing. None of us do squat to change the situation in he ground.

@greenteakitten said in #64:
> The land now called Israel, Palestine, and the Gaza Strip has been passed from many hands. You cannot really start a "who had it first" argument, but even if you wanted to trace it to Abraham and stop there, Abraham was neither Arab nor Jew. So that doesn't really prove anything.

I thought Abraham was Jewish?

@DrMasterstein2012 said in #66:
> I thought Abraham was Jewish?

Depends on who you ask. Some people will say yes, some people will say no. So for the sake of neutrality I'm just going to say he was neither :)

Technically Abraham is the ancestor of both Arab and Jew.

And @WassimBerbar I just want to ask, what makes you think that the term "Zionist" is an insult, so that you use it so often? Instead of other terms?

Since as far as I know, Zionism is the belief that the Jews have a right to a country.

@greenteakitten said in #67:
> Depends on who you ask. Some people will say yes, some people will say no. So for the sake of neutrality I'm just going to say he was neither :)
>
> Technically Abraham is the ancestor of both Arab and Jew.

Islam didn't emerge as a distinct religion until Mohammed came around, so it would probably be more accurate to think of Abraham as both.

He's Schrödinger's Prophet.

@clousems said in #69:
> Islam didn't emerge as a distinct religion until Mohammed came around, so it would probably be more accurate to think of Abraham as both.
>
> He's Schrödinger's Prophet.

Then, if he was both, that means that both the Arabs and the Jews have claim to the land, right? Then why do people not support a two-state solution?